Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

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Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Major Tom » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:36 pm

Joby wrote:I tend to agree with Requiel remembering that I too am not an American citizen.

For the record, neither am I... :-)

Major T.

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Joby » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:56 pm

I wouldn't say that President Obama has done nothing except pontificate, he's built a lot of bridges to the Arab world, to Cuba and to Iran, additionally he's rebuilt relations with places that had been snubbed under previous administrations such as France and Spain. All of that has put the State Department back in a good position to get positive results and in general heralds a return to a saner and more inclusive foreign policy that doesn't revolve around American exceptionalism. There have been talks with Russia on reducing nuclear weapons stocks and brought the US out of the reflexive hatred of anything to do with the UN. I'm not sure that any other individual has done more than that in the past year to be honest.

I tend to agree with Requiel remembering that I too am not an American citizen.
Joby :D :D :D

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Old Dad » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:13 pm

I haven't commented on this yet, so here we go. ;)

Seems to me "premature" is even an overstatement. Yes, he can 'talk the talk' but we've yet to see if he can 'walk the walk.' As we all know, talking and doing are two VERY different things! My opinion? They should have waited at least another year or two.

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Elefino » Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:09 pm

Maybe the Committee is suffering a case of "Obamania" like a lot of people are :shock:

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Major Tom » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:43 pm

That discounts significant amounts of information found in documents where Arafat authorized (in his handwriting) funding and armament for various causes, which officially and publicly he blamed on various independent factions, especially the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigade.

Requiel wrote:I firmly believe that without Arafat, the situation would have been significantly worse than it was. As unlikable as he was, he managed to keep some of the worst elements in check and his death was a very tense moment in the politics of the area.

I cannot argue about matters of faith.

Major T.

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Requiel » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:10 pm

Well this is going somewhat off topic but I think it's important to note that Arafat had a very tenuous hold on power amongst Palestinians. While the Israeli side was strongly divided over the Oslo Accords, the situation was even more stark on the Palestinian side. Hamas and the more extreme elements wanted nothing to do with it while the more moderate factions were mostly optimistic. To say that Arafat was the ultimate authority over all of these groups is not very accurate. Arafat mostly had support from the moderates as a strong leader who wouldn't be immediately denounced by the more extreme elements and he was tolerated by the rest. Unfortunately the moderates alone do not form a majority (as was shown when Hamas took power in the recent elections). I firmly believe that without Arafat, the situation would have been significantly worse than it was. As unlikable as he was, he managed to keep some of the worst elements in check and his death was a very tense moment in the politics of the area. The fact that the Palestinians almost universally took a much harder line immediately following his death shows fairly clearly just how much he moderated the extremes even if he couldn't control them entirely.

And yes, warlord is a good way to describe him, but this is the realpolitik of a tribal culture without formal borders or sovereign land.

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Old Dad » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:46 am

Requiel wrote:
Major Tom wrote:My notion is that the Nobel Foundation should have waited two more years (so we'd know a bit more about his term and it won't be in an election year).
After all, we all saw some of their previous selections - Yasser Arafat and Le Duc Tho (who declined it).

Major T.

Both of those were joint awards. Le Duc Tho was a joint winner with Henry Kissinger for negotiating the end to the Vietnam war. Arafat won jointly with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin for the Oslo Accords. In both those cases I'd say that the people involved made measurable and significant contributions to world peace.


I must say, Requiel, that you are normally HIGHLY accurate when it comes to things of historical politics. But you're *way* off the mark about Arafat - he made NO genuine effort toward achieving peace in any form! In fact, giving him that award could be almost compared to giving Hitler one.

The reason it was all a sham on Arafat's part is that peace would have demoted him to a near-nobody. He had power, continued increasing personal wealth and position as long as there was NO peace. If the conflict had ended, he very well would have most probably been given a high political office but would have lost the near-total autonomous hold he held as leader of the PLO. He would have been forced to share all his advantages - that he currently held undivided - with members of any kind of organized government. So, peace was the LAST thing he ever desired. The man was nothing but a thinly disguised warlord.

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Requiel » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:36 am

At the time of the nominations and awards however they were major steps forwards. Remember that the terms of the peace prize are enshrined in Alfred Nobel's will as follows:

"the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses".


Regardless of the subsequent history, I think that both of those awards were merited at the time. Kissinger is hardly a saint and his award, like Arafat's was intended to commemorate the specific work he did in negotiating peace rather than a lifetime of service to the cause of peace.

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Major Tom » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:05 am

Requiel wrote:Both of those were joint awards. Le Duc Tho was a joint winner with Henry Kissinger for negotiating the end to the Vietnam war. Arafat won jointly with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin for the Oslo Accords. In both those cases I'd say that the people involved made measurable and significant contributions to world peace.

In both cases I'd say it was premature and history showed it wasn't exactly well-rewarded.

While the US withdrew from Vietnam as a result of the negotiations, the war continued until the collapse of Southern Vietnam.

Arafat kept arming the Palestinian Authority in violation of the Oslo Accords, until he used them in a full-scale assault in September of 2000.

Major T.

Re: Obama - Nobel Peace Prize

Post by Requiel » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:09 am

Major Tom wrote:My notion is that the Nobel Foundation should have waited two more years (so we'd know a bit more about his term and it won't be in an election year).
After all, we all saw some of their previous selections - Yasser Arafat and Le Duc Tho (who declined it).

Major T.

Both of those were joint awards. Le Duc Tho was a joint winner with Henry Kissinger for negotiating the end to the Vietnam war. Arafat won jointly with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin for the Oslo Accords. In both those cases I'd say that the people involved made measurable and significant contributions to world peace.

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